Video Transcript

Ben Zander:

Good. Very good, very good, Minchao. Very, very good.

I want you to get the difference between empowering players rather than bending players to your will. There’s a very big difference there. You have a great cellist here, and you could be conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, right? This is as good as it’ll ever get, right? Okay?

So your gestures are like a bird controlling her. She doesn’t want to be controlled. She wants to be liberated, which is a totally different feeling. And she’ll do what you say without fail, because she’s very obedient, like all orchestral musicians. Very obedient. “I’ll do whatever you say.” But then it becomes more about you than it is about her. And when I say her, I mean her whole section. You understand that?

So you have to decide, first of all, one of the very interesting things about this theme is the first note is the highest note. Is it a downbeat or an upbeat?

Minchao Cai:

Upbeat.

Ben Zander:

It’s an upbeat.

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

But that creates terrific tension, because it’s the highest note. Often when you hear this, you think you’re hearing 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2_… Which of course is completely wrong. Well, Brahms is saying, “No, it’s an upbeat. It’s an upbeat,” but it’s still_… And then it relaxes. And then it does it again.

Now, she needs_… They. I’ll say “they.” Don’t know whether it’s an upbeat or a downbeat. Orchestral players don’t know until the conductor tells them. So all you need to do is to make clear to her that it’s a heavy upbeat. It’s as if it was a heavy downbeat, right? So let me show you. Just do the opening.

Isn’t that beautiful? That’s all you need to do. All right?

Minchao Cai:

Okay, I’ll try again.

Ben Zander:

Do that. Try again. You’re doing great. I love what you’re doing. And they will too. I mean, once you get yourself out of the way and start being in love with them, all right? Try that again.

No, you look worried. There’s nothing worried about it. You’ll be worried if you don’t trust them. But if you trust them, they’re going to be great. So you go, “I can’t wait for it,” right?

Isn’t that beautiful how they fit? They work beautifully, right? Here we go. Don’t look worried.

Good. Beautiful. Beautiful. That was great. Be satisfied when you get to the end of the phrase. Don’t be in a hurry. Now. A new idea, right? Let the first idea settle. Beautiful, let’s hear it. Finish.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Bravo. Bravo. That was beautiful. Wasn’t that lovely? You felt liberated?

Cellist:

Mm-hmm.

Ben Zander:

Yeah. Look how happy she looks. When orchestral players are conducted well, they love to play. And when they’re conducted not well, they suffer all sorts of diseases, which is why it’s called a dis-ease. You get that? Wrong tempo, wrong phrasing. They get ill. That’s the way it works. But just now you did it, and look, she’s smiling and she’s happy. All right?

Now, when the second phrase comes, notice that it’s not only about the cello. In fact, it isn’t really about the cello at all, it’s about the trombones. So if you can make a gesture, then the cellist realize it’s not about_… But it’s about filling out the sound of the trombones. Should we try one more? Conduct it as if it was the last time you’re ever going to conduct that phrase and nobody was ever going to hear it ever again. Can you do that? Finish. Trombones.

Cellist:

Sorry.

Ben Zander:

Good. Wow. Good, bravo. Bravo, bravo. Very good. Very beautiful. Bravo. I could say, “Fantastic. Fine. Let’s go on.” I have one more thing to say to you, that the difference between very good, and that was very good, and what could be great is the message that you give to the players that you feel so deeply about this music, that you want to ask of them unusual intensity, tenderness, love, expressiveness, whatever it is. That comes from your face, more even than from your hands.

And at the moment, your face is pretty expressive, but quite a lot of the time it’s a little bit bland and doesn’t express what’s inside you. Right? So that’s a new stage for you. They want to see, by looking at your whole being, that you are suffused with intense love for this music at every moment, and that you care about it.

And the climax, for instance, I mean, this_… Of course, you only have one cello, although a great one. But this climax, it’s just so, so intense, isn’t it? So should we try one more time? And add that dimension that_… And this is not for the audience, this is only for the players. Because the audience_… If it becomes for the audience, then it becomes like ham acting, and everybody can see through that. It’s got to be genuine. Otherwise they’ll dismiss you.

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

But if it’s really intense and really for the music, everybody will feel it. All right? Should we try it?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

It’s very exciting, isn’t it?

Minchao Cai:

Where-

Ben Zander:

It’s another whole dimension. Yeah, another whole dimension. We’re always growing as musicians. Schnabel said this, and it’s so wise, “However good we are, we’re never as great as the music we play.” Isn’t that great?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

And I’m 84 and I’m still struggling to get up to this mountain, Brahms up there in the sky. We never get there.

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

All right? Isn’t that great? Here we go, from the beginning. And now imagine you’re conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, one of the great orchestras, and they’ll give you everything that you want. Isn’t that exciting?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah, yeah.

Ben Zander:

And let’s just say it’s great to conduct musicians like this, isn’t it?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

Yeah, really wonderful.

The feeling all the time, this deepness of the music doesn’t leave you. So should we try it one more time?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

Great. Last time. And then you’ll be run over by a bus as you’re leaving the place, and everybody will say how sorry they are that we lost you. But the last time he conducted, it was fantastic.

Good. Good. It’s great. Musicians hunger for what the conductor has to offer. They hunger for it. They want everything. And they don’t want anything to be casual or automatic pilot or just ordinary or held back. They want everything. Isn’t that great?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

In that sense, they’re your absolute allies, all of them. The orchestra players are not your enemies, they’re your allies. All right. Isn’t that great? You’re doing beautifully.

Don’t ever crouch over the musicians, because that’s something you do with little children who are not behaving well.

So let’s go on. I would like to see the next phrase.

That sounds ordinary. Sounds ordinary. Yeah. What instrument are you conducting? Just a moment. What instrument?

Minchao Cai:

Horn.

Ben Zander:

Yeah, horn. So make it sound like a great horn player. All right.

No, that’s ordinary. Let me tell you, this is a great horn player. One. Isn’t that so_… Great writing, isn’t it?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

With the flute and the oboe and the_… Oh God, it’s pushing in against you. This kind of conducting is_… It’s nothing.

Crescendo. Flute. Crescendo. Cello, bass. Two, three, four. One, two, three.

Yeah, it’s careful. I mean, that’s one of the great Brahms crescendos, isn’t it? Look. Look how first of violas and the cellos and then the second violins and then the first violins. This is the climax. I mean, huge. Can we try one more time? Even back when the cello, bass comes in. That’s so exciting. That crescendo. And then this. Don’t get too slow here, because it’s moving to_… Actually, it’s moving to the very last beat of the bar, isn’t it? Should we try once again?

Cellist:

Can you move just a little bit?

Ben Zander:

Yeah, I’m sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want to see in your body each instrument. First the horn, then the bassoon, then the oboe. And then this crescendo is so intense, with the syncopation. And then the flute adds another crescendo. And when the cellos and basses come, oh my God, it’s just thrilling. Just try it once again, this whole facet.

Cellist:

Pick up at 28, is that right?

Ben Zander:

It’s through the same place, A.

Cellist:

Okay.

Ben Zander:

I want to hear the sound of a horn. My teacher, a great, great cellist, Gaspar Cassado, he told me this story. He came to a concert and Cortot was playing the piano. He was up in the balcony and Cortot caught sight of him out of the corner of his eye. One of the world’s greatest cellists just walked into my concert hall, and he played_… He was playing Chopin, and he played exactly the sound of a cello to greet the great cellist. Isn’t that wonderful? And the sound was exactly like a cello. That’s what a piano can do. It can sound like any instrument, but it depends on you to make it. All right, here we go. Horn. Great horn. Oboe. Crescendo. Flute. Now the cello, bass. Two, three, four. One, two. Now trombones.

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, they don’t know this music. You want to be able to have them play it as perfectly as could be. Just do that passage from the 12 eight, because the beauty is you’re going to get this very free. I’m a great believer in rubato. I don’t know if you’ve gathered that by now. I love that orchestras should be treated with great respect, because they can play as freely as a chamber music group. I absolutely believe that. And the Boston Philharmonic proves it over and over again. We play so freely. So would you just do from here? Yeah.

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

Yeah, just a moment. We’ve got the pianist leading the violin. It should be the other way around. Listen very carefully to what the violin’s doing, because otherwise he can’t play the way he wants to play. Good. You can be still free. Let’s do it together, because I think we feel it the same way. Three, four. Finish. Now clarinets. Yeah, should we do it a little more even? Yeah, let’s try one more together. Three, four. Finish. Clarinets.

I feel it more. I feel it more. That’s the orchestra players are trained to do that, to look all the time, to see what the hands are doing and they just follow that. Let me try it one more time. Same thing.

Now. Now finish. Now. Now the violin. Listen, listen. Yeah, that’s very hard to do. I mean, it’s hard for him to do. But crescendo right at the end, and then the subito piano. Beautiful. Just do where the violins come in. Do you know the bar?

Minchao Cai:

It’s three pickup to the fifth-

Cellist:

Fifth bar.

Minchao Cai:

_… bar. Yeah.

Ben Zander:

Yeah, fifth bar. Yeah.

Beautiful.

Speaker 4:

Sorry. Sorry.

Ben Zander:

Yeah. Actually, that’s something else. That’s something else you’re doing. It’s not quite right. Brahms didn’t know that. You’re great. You’re doing really beautifully. You have a wonderful spirit, very generous, very open, very gifted. I think you’re going to be a force. I’m very, very happy. Very happy to see you. You love music. You convey the love easily. The players get a lot from you. It’s beautiful. Just more of the same.

Do you play a string instrument?

Minchao Cai:

No.

Ben Zander:

You don’t. Would be a very good idea, because some of the gestures you make are not exactly what they need. When I conduct, I’m actually playing the cello. Everything is for them. And they have no difficulty seeing. I mean, sometimes they do.

I have a little thing, which is I put a white sheet of paper on the stand of every_…. Have you heard of that? I put a white sheet of paper on the stand of every musician, and I say, “Please tell me anything that’s not working or that you want to do that we’re not doing,” and they do. They tell me. The tempo’s too slow. Or somebody says, “You’re not making enough crescendo here.”

So one day, we were conducting a_… It was Bruckner, I think. And one of the players wrote, “You’re not making a crescendo into the recapitulation,” or something. And that night, at the concert, I made a huge crescendo, and she came up to me after the concert, she said, “You did my crescendo.”

But you see, the thing, if they felt that they were doing their crescendo rather than obeying your crescendo, it would change the relationship very much, because it would feel like their performance. Isn’t that great?

Minchao Cai:

Yeah.

Ben Zander:

So power is something to give away. Like manure, you spread it around. You’re great. Terrific. Thank you.